Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[davemfox]

By the way, im not just some muppet with an idea in his head. Im a muppet with an honours degree in mechanical engineering and an IQ of 156.

I'm not far behind you mate, but I'd have to agree with what Andy et al have said 

Dave

[r1ninja]

Good luck Jamma, but keep it safe eh

[jamma10566]

Cheers mate, will do. Will keep you posted if i ever  get round to doing it.

[morepower]

Just read this thread all the way through..
It seems many do not see the value of traction control and have little or no idea how it works....

It is quite simple in principle but the set up and progamming is the hard part.
The bike needs a few things.
2 wheel speed sensors. One front, one rear.
Suspension travel potentiometers to measure the extension and compression of the forks and/rear shock. OK a front only will work but to work with a good degree of accuracy both will make it better.
Gyro like the ones used in remote control helicopters will do.
Then an ECU which measures all of the data and alters the ignition and fuel map to allow for different wheel speeds and anything over a 5 to 15% difference in speed will retard the ignition and/or cut fuel. When the gyro senses a change in lean angle the perameters can change to reduce the level of wheel spin allowed.
To get maximum acceleration then the suspension will measure for a pre set extension of the forks so the bike is not quite on the back wheel and will gradually reduce power as the suspension extends and then allow power to come back in gradually so you do not get the Kangaroo effect the Ilmor had when it would wheelie..Kill power and as soon as the wheel speed cought up with the rear it would allow full power again and kick up the front again. It was un-ridable as the didn't use the suspension travel to moderate how the power was controlled both in how it was reduced gradually and how it was gradually brought back in.

The items needed as I said are not out side the realms of possiblility and can be bought..It is the ECU and set up which is the hard part. Units like Bazzaz and the new Dyno Pro module claim traction control but without sensors it is not possible to do it with full control needed to be usefull for racers or trackday riders.

[jamma10566]

Perhaps "traction control" was not the best description for my idea. Maybe "anti highside device" would have been better.

[mc101]

[morepower]

I know Ray quite well and know how much it costs to do something that seems very simple. The truth is the speed the Motec unit needs to work at and the way it has to process multiple sensors to get it to work how we need is never going to be cheap. The Dyno Pro device claims it has similar processing capability to the Motec. I would need to see it to believe it. The most basic Motec set up is just that and OK other devices may match it. But as you pay to unlock more features that are already inside the Motec ECU the more you realise how complex the little box is. But to pay hundeds of pounds to unlock different sensor inputs and features does seem steep when you know it is all there and just needs a password to let you use it!

[mc101]

I know Ray quite well and know how much it costs to do something that seems very simple.

I think therein lies the challenge ... the physics model in question is anything but simple.

[r1ninja]

It isn't all about processing power. You wouldn't believe how archaic the architecture of the Eurofighter flight control computers is. It's just about proper development and system knowledge.
The problem bike racing teams have (non gp teams) is that the crews are effectively spanner monkeys.  F1 got around that problem years ago by recruiting their electronics guys from the aviation industry

[morepower]

I know Ray quite well and know how much it costs to do something that seems very simple.

I think therein lies the challenge ... the physics model in question is anything but simple.

It isn't all about processing power. You wouldn't believe how archaic the architecture of the Eurofighter flight control computers is. It's just about proper development and system knowledge.
The problem bike racing teams have (non gp teams) is that the crews are effectively spanner monkeys.  F1 got around that problem years ago by recruiting their electronics guys from the aviation industry

The power doesn't come from the need to make the actions happen quickly but the need for the sensors to be able to log every aspect which to be accurate so as you say it doesn't  need loads of processor power but it probably needs to be a bit more powerful than the stock ECU as it has to carry fuelling, ignition mapping, wheel speed X2, suspension front and rear as well as a gyro for lean angle then combine all the data to make it work to the programming which stops us from highsiding into the next county, plus all of the normal stuff the manufacturer wants it to do.

The idea of what it does seems simple but I agree it is a lot more than that as it has to figure out what is going to happen at every speed, rpm, lean angle and suspension position.... It takes a lot of work to make it work how the rider needs and is more down the the guy setting it up than the device it's self.

 

[r1ninja]

The power doesn't come from the need to make the actions happen quickly but the need for the sensors to be able to log every aspect which to be accurate so as you say it doesn't  need loads of processor power but it probably needs to be a bit more powerful than the stock ECU as it has to carry fuelling, ignition mapping, wheel speed X2, suspension front and rear as well as a gyro for lean angle then combine all the data to make it work to the programming which stops us from highsiding into the next county, plus all of the normal stuff the manufacturer wants it to do.

The idea of what it does seems simple but I agree it is a lot more than that as it has to figure out what is going to happen at every speed, rpm, lean angle and suspension position.... It takes a lot of work to make it work how the rider needs and is more down the the guy setting it up than the device it's self.

It's all about time sharing and prioritising. The problem is getting all the algorithms right, that whats costs so much money and then having someone tailor it to each individul bike. That's the beauty of the system on the 1098R , its made only for the Duke so they can get it spot on with their massive R&D resources nd thier unrivalled racing pedigree. And that's wy most bike racing teams would struggle, they dont have the skills or resources

[jamma10566]

Ok, at the risk of being further ridiculed, here goes with the MK2 version.
Using just a steering position sensor and a giro.
My thoughts are that when TC was developed for bikes, they looked at the systems that worked on cars and then developed it for bikes rather than starting from scratch.
A bike only really needs TC when on the power coming out of a corner. If the rear spins up, the back steps out, instantly changing the steering angle. As soon as this is detected power is reduced allowing grip to be restored bringing both wheels back in line and then restoring full power. This should react faster than conventional systems because there is only 1 sensor input to analyse rather than having to analyse both wheel speeds and compare the 2 values.
A gyro could then adjust the sensitivity of the system depending on lean angle. For example, switch off for anything less than say 10 degrees lean up to full sensitivity for anything over 45 degrees. Values could be user adjustable. That way, when the front goes light and the bars get a shimmy on, it wouldnt cut power.
With less sensor inputs the system should work faster, be more reliable and be easier to set up with only 2 variable parameters to consider.

[scooby]

but if it's only going off 1 wheel,how will it know it's spinning/sliding?

[truescot]

but if it's only going off 1 wheel,how will it know it's spinning/sliding?

my guess is that you wouldnt measure the speed of the spinning but the resistance going to the wheel, there will be a big drop in force on the back wheel when it spins which could easily be measured and used along with a throttle position sensor along witht he fuel pump sensor etc

[r1ninja]

How are you going to measure torque?