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[rickyzx10r]

yes i did notice the bike falling in faster..i didn't need to force it over as much.its a great mod and the abba stand was needed for that. unfortunately it will raise the standing/throw your leg over height..but im 6'1" so its not an issue..im not sure how much the swingarm angle change is ( ive raised the rear height on most of the bikes ive owned an never given that any thought.. it would think it would need to an extreme angle change to become a problem.

ive no experience with shimming a shock (do you mean the spacers used on the top shock bracket ?).. but the spring was wrong for me.. i dont think the damping is to bad but its no ohlins..
if you go onto the race tech site (www.racetech.com) you can put your weight in and it will tell the best weight of spring you should be running for you..i think springs are the best place to start with suspension.

if you looking another useful mod i can highly recommend heli bars..even the new gen 4 zx10r has flatter wider bars..and by the way thats what john mcguinness uses for the tt races so if its good enough for him etc...

[HammyUK]

Dog bones is the typical Yank way of raising the rear.
You need to remember that unlike a spacer on the top of the shock (which Kwack offer as part if the race kit) dog bones will completely change the ratio of the rear linkage to the arm.

[rickyzx10r]

explain the difference between spacers changing the angle and dog bones changing the angle and what actually is wrong with dog bones. and can you explain what  yank mod means bearing in mind its lustracing uk that make them..

[HammyUK]

A spacer raises the rear ride height and places more weight over the front end by lifting the rear subframe.
It DOES NOT affect any of the ratios of the linkage, pivots, swing arm, etc. it's the same as a longer/adjustable length shock.
Longer dog bones changes the ratio of leverage within the linkage/pivot/swing arm.
By a "Yank mod" - it means a typical half thought mod that more often than not gives far more problems than it solves. You only have to look at their bolt-on arm extensions, 240 section rims, etc.
There's a reason Kwack make spacers, Ohlins and WP state to use them too - it doesn't change any of the ratios or how the suspension works, it doesn't move any pivot points, it just moves the CoG to change the front bias.

[HammyUK]

A spacer raises the rear ride height and places more weight over the front end by lifting the rear subframe.
It DOES NOT affect any of the ratios of the linkage, pivots, swing arm, etc. it's almost the same as a longer/adjustable length shock ( although the latter will affect shock pivot leverage slightly).
Longer dog bones changes the ratio of leverage within the linkage/pivot/swing arm.
By a "Yank mod" - it means a typical half thought mod that more often than not gives far more problems than it solves. You only have to look at their bolt-on arm extensions, 240 section rims, etc.
There's a reason Kwack make spacers, Ohlins and WP state to use them too - it doesn't change any of the ratios or how the suspension works, it doesn't move any pivot points, it just moves the CoG to change the front bias.

[rickyzx10r]

you can buy different linkages to change those ratios and angles in a more extreme way than dog bones..your giving the impression that there is some serious issue here..
 i take it that you know the dogs bones are only 5mm different than standard and as such the changes at source are very small...have you any evidence that fitting lustracing uk dogs bones are in any way detrimental to the bikes handling because if you do i'll be straight on to lust..
spacers do take weight off the rear and put more on the front so changing the balance...so do the bones..i think its apples and oranges here but you obviously have no experience with this product...and im not so sure about race kit..its just a packet of fancy washers that your dealer will be happy to supply you for silly money.

[Jak]

ive no experience with shimming a shock (do you mean the spacers used on the top shock bracket ?).. but the spring was wrong for me.. i dont think the damping is to bad but its no ohlins..
if you go onto the race tech site (www.racetech.com) you can put your weight in and it will tell the best weight of spring you should be running for you..i think springs are the best place to start with suspension.

Agreed, I've changed the fronts to 0.9N and rear to 95N. I've also dropped the front 5mm. From what I have read, the stock geometry has too much rearward bias and more weight is needed over the front. Also the stock swingarm angle is considered less than the quoted optimum 12.5 degrees, I think its about 11.4 (?)

My bike is handling and cornering well now, but if I can improve it further I will. I understand that raising the ride height at the rear will help the bike "finish the corner" by increasing swingarm angle for better traction on the throttle. It will also reduce fork rake and trail. As the gen3 is already quite well endowed in this area, a small reduction should actually improve response.

From what I can gather, it doesn't matter whether this is achieved by washers/spacers under the shock nut or by shorter dog bones. Both methods alter geometry, but not apparently to the detriment of handling (unless taken to extremes). Curiously, fitting a higher profile (e.g.190x65 slick) tyre has the opposite effect on swingarm angle, which is another reason for jacking up the ride height. Dropping the forks in the yokes also has a negative effect on swingarm angle, but very minor compared with altering ride height at the rear

Think I might have opened a can of worms with this one 

if you looking another useful mod i can highly recommend heli bars..even the new gen 4 zx10r has flatter wider bars..and by the way thats what john mcguinness uses for the tt races so if its good enough for him etc...

Have been thinking of changing the clip-ons or possibly flipping the standard bars.
Thanks again for your input 

[rickyzx10r]

hi jak,
i fked about with that handle bar thing...its not just as straight forward as flipping the bars over...there's alignment holes for the switch gear dowls to go into and if i remember the brake fluid reservoir was also an issue...so in the end i went the helibar route...there not cheap but the quality is really in them...ive had my fair share of damage over the years and if anything these bars are making faster riding easier and the bike just generally easier to live with.

by the way you might run into bother with the shock.. top bracket nut...there's a a split pin that stops you getting any real adjustment/height from washers or shims.. another reason why i went for the bones..
take a look at it you'll see what i mean.

oh.. and when when you first said shims i thought you meant the internal shim stack of the shock..

[RedRock]

Welcome 

[HammyUK]

You are completely missing the point - 5mm on the dog bones can be equal to 20mm of spacers depending on the linkage ratio.
Have another look at the subframe - there is more than enough of thread before you get anywhere near the split pin to fit spacers. Kwack made it that way for a reason.
Add the fact that 5mm through the forks has already given you almost the same as a 12mm spacer already before you've even touched the rear....

[rickyzx10r]

hammy i think your missing the point..you have no evidence with which to trash that mod...that is the point... either it works or it doesn't either its safe or its not yes it lifts the bike 25 mm or so at the rear  axle to sub frame ( which is what lust says it does ) and the spacers will do something similar and both change the geometry..

jak wants the rear raised its that simple..ive give him an opinion based on having  fitted and currently using lust dog bones and for my money they do a great job..
 ive also in the past used washers to good effect too..jak seems very knowledgeable looking at his list of mods and reasoning for them...
 im happy with the advice ive given from a functionality and safety stand point.. he can check the spacer room available for himself if he wants to maintain the safety of the split pin...

have the last word by all means but remember rear rockers and linkages are changed out even by the manufactures..to improve a bike as it goes through its production run and anyway all bikes are made to suit a best guess mister average so rockers and linkages are not set in stone..its up to us to change a bike for comfort or riding style...kawasaki dont make end cans or tyres but we junk the oe spec stuff for what we believe to be better do we not..

im happy to debate with anyone and agree were im wrong but you offer up no argument ( example or experience ) as to why its a bad move..

im saying no more...talk about Jonathon rea or something.

[HammyUK]

hammy i think your missing the point..you have no evidence with which to trash that mod...that is the point...

On the contrary - I have 2 Kawasaki Kit arms that are un-saleable sat in a container.
Kwack provided them to MSS directly from Japan with different linkages and dogbones. Nick binned the pair of them after they caused more issues and crashes than they solved.
The only reason I even have them is they came as part of a batch of stuff. All the linkages and dogbones were cut up in lots of little pieces in a box with them so they couldn't be used again.
MSS went straight back to spacers in conjunction with adjustable swingarm pivots and wheelbase. In Nick's own words - "biggest waste of my sponsors money on medical bills ever...."

[rickyzx10r]

yea but they're kit swing arms completely different to the standard arm...your now bringing in a whole new level of mod that's not relevant to the dog bones as a stand alone mod on a standard swing arm..your moving pivots points and arm lengths on a race bike...its got nothing to do with a 5mm shorter dog bone...your grasping at straws mate..your trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill to prove a non existent point..i mean what your showing is not proof of anything other than kit parts from kawasaki  didnt work for a race team lolol

bottom line..
ive ask you to show that lust dog bones are in anyway unsafe and you throw 2 completely different racing kit swing arms that a race team said didnt work for them..they might have worked for someone else by the way..are you saying no kit swing arms work then..no wait nick is using different swing arm pivot points..and is that with stock dog bones etc because if they are stock then they will lie differently just like a lust bone does and if they are not stock then he's happy to change the length as and when needed just like i said..

you just cant bring yourelf to admit that there really is no noticeable  difference between spacers and bones...if you could prove it you would show me something/anything related to the lust part only ...

[Wayno]

Welcome fella. Nice bike you have there.

[davemfox]

Gents,

Can you take the technical stuff over to the technical board please?

Dave